Behind the Cover: The push to add female grunts

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UPDATE, April 19: Marine Corps Times posted online this morning the story teased below. It’s available here.

In 1994, the Pentagon explicitly forbade women from joining combat units, saying they were banned from “assignment to units below the brigade level whose primary mission is to engage in direct combat on the ground.”

The decree was made even as the military eased restrictions on other fields such as combat aviation, which allowed women to become war-zone pilots for the first time. It has stood for nearly two decades, including throughout the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Change could be in the air, however. As reported by Marine Corps Times previously, a panel appointed by Congress recently recommended that the military open all military occupational specialties to women, even in the combat arms.

In a cover story on newsstands this week, Marine Corps Times advances the story considerably. We lay out what the Corps has done this year alone in light of the recommendations, and what the change would mean to infantrymen, mortar men and other grunts in the combat arms. It goes without saying that this is an emotionally charged issue for many Marines.

You can pick the newspaper up on newsstands now, or subscribe here to read it online.

Also, we want to hear from more Marines on the subject. After checking out the story, please consider weighing in with a letter sent to marinelet (at) marinecorpstimes.com.

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About Author

I'm a senior writer with Marine Corps Times, covering ground warfare, manpower, weapons acquisition and other beats. I embedded in Afghanistan in spring 2010, and plan to return at least once in 2011.

101 Comments

  1. You have got to be kidding me. Will it weaken the infantry. Hell yes!! No questions asked. I want to see her carry a 150 lb Marine, let alone drag one to safety..

  2. Drozd MSgt USMC Ret on

    It is the moral fiber of men to protect their women, it is inherent to our instinct because God made us this way. This will compound the severity of PTSD in the future.

  3. Women are weaker then men. It’s not an opinion it’s a fact. I don’t think we should have women in combat any more then we already do. I don’t think we should have men in supply either.

  4. I smell about 18,000 NJP’s for insubordination on the horizon. Even if this were to happen, I doubt that it sticks because I don’t see too many females going to recruiters saying “I wanna’ be an 03” and there aren’t many females in the Marines as it is. Eventually someone will say “This is pointless” and put a cank on it. Find me a company of WM’s who can make the hump to range 400 with a full load. Won’t happen.

  5. If they want proof of how women react in combat already, take a look at the FET teams. I’ve yet to see them become directly engaged with enemy forces and react accordingly. Not to take away from females at all, because I also agree with what Anthony says.

  6. guys are so sexist anymore. women have already been in combat situations stop being so ignorant. it is also inevitable. men are willing just as much to die saving their brothers in arms as they are women. women can prove themselves just as strong as men. nobody has any right to tell you how to live your life. grow up, and get over it.

  7. It’s a bit silly to say “women are weaker than men”. Yes, some women are weaker than some men, and some men are weaker than some women. As long as the standards are kept the exact same for men and women to become an infantryperson, I don’t see an issue. By keeping the standards the same, you will weed out any women (just as it does with men) who are unable to physically and mentally perform the job. The number of women who are able to perform these duties might be small, but it would be unfair to not allow a woman who is capable of performing, the opportunity to serve in the infantry. There *are* women out there who can carry a 150 pound man, hump with a pack that weighs the same as them while carrying a weapon, and are excellent shots.

    I served as a generator mechanic while I was in, but toward the end of my enlistment after I was promoted to Sgt, I was placed in S-3 and worked with an infantryman (our training chief was an 03 position) and we managed along nicely. It was awkward for him at first to work with me, but eventually he realized I was no different than any of them men he worked with. If more men would keep an open mind, and not leap to conclusions (or believe all the bizarre stories and fables that male pogs like to spread about woman Marines) and just accept that things in the Marine Corps are evolving, they might find themselves surprised and impressed with their sister Marines.

    Keep the physical standards the same for infantrymen and women, emphasize and demand professionalism between the sexes. Come down hard on those who can’t manage to be professional, and people will learn quick.

  8. I’m a grunt who’s worked with the Lionesses in Iraq and the FETs in Afghanistan. They’re cool to have around but straight up female grunts?! When the FETs came we had build them seperate showers/hygiene areas/heads and they were a logistical nightmare! Plus later on if they don’t pick up a team leader/squad leader billet they’ll raise hell for the command being sexist, not to mention the slew of sexual harassment/rape/pregnancy charges that would be imminent if you stick males and females on a FOB/COP for 7 months. I’m not saying it’s the females fault, but if there’s no temptation, then nothing happens.

    Ps I love how the “salty, hard-charging” sergeant on the cover has been in for 7 years and has never deployed

  9. but if it ever does send a company of all female 0311’s to sangin or wherever the fight is and that would be the last time.

  10. marriedtoagrunt0351[3/5-2/8] on

    I had a petition going got over 100 signatures [female marines, former grunts] went to a recruiting station and was told off by a grunt now RA to take my pitition wipe my ass with it then eat it! So I hope that this DOES PASS and females are allowed because I will be getting back in and asking to be an 03!

  11. CAN’T POSSIBLY DETER COMBAT EFFECTIVENESS ANY MORE THAN THE DADT, WHO WANTS TO MAKE NOISE ABOUT THEIR LIFE STYLE.FOR THE LADY MARINES IT’S NOT ABOUT EFFECTIVENESS. ITS ABOUT SPECIAL. WIMMENS ARE TO SPECIAL IN MY BOOK TO TO LIVE THE LIFE OF A GRUNT.

  12. retiredOEFVET on

    Thank god i’m out!!! It would be nice to see the Marine Corps infantry battalions close down for a day to show that this does not need to get approval. The lioness program is enough!

  13. Female Marine on

    I am a Female Marine and my honest opinion is this is not a good idea. I do not agree with the comments that females cannot carry a full load or carry/drag another Marine to safety. I weigh less than 130lbs but I am capable of firemans carrying a Marine that weighs over 200lbs for a good distance and if any Marine cannot carry a full load then they dont belong in the Marine Corps anyway. I do believe that having females in combat with grunts would be a mistake that would increase the amount deaths or injurys than we aready have.

    I think that every Marine (to include females) should go the SOI after boot camp instead of MCT. Every Marine should be combat ready no matter the MOS or sex. I dont think that MCT prepares anyone for combat it would be a good refresher but we should all be exposed to better training and pushed to be better and that SOI would increase the strength and readiness of the Marine Corps. The CFT it is a good start but it should be more than just a test.

  14. Lcpl McMahon on

    Honestly i dont see a problem half the female marines i know can carry their own weight more so than some of the males. If theyre kept to the same standard as male marines theres no reason why they shouldnt be able to. Yes a good lot of them shouldn’t. But there are those that can make a big diffrence.

  15. Forever LCPL on

    All these people who are saying that they know FMs who carry their weight better than their male counterparts are obviously straight POGs. I would LOVE to see a female marine tag along with a grunt unit on a REAL hump. Lemme see them make it through a 20 miler . My platoon had a couple Lionesses attached to us at the Government center in Ramadi, and by the time our deployment was coming to an end, I knew 5 or 6 marines who had ended up having sex with them. Grunts don’t need that distraction, they need to stay focused on the job at hand.

    Also grunts love to talk shit, thats just what we do. The fact that grunts would always have to be looking over their shoulder before saying something is just ridiculous. That is my biggest complaint, FMs want to be treated the same but they raise hell when they hear a grunt walking past them talking about how , “Thats gay!” or “yeah he’s a pussy”.

  16. women should totally be allowed in combat units! women can have just as much strength as males, they just have to work harder for it. they can be just as strong and personally, it crap that women who can meet the requirements arent allowed to join.

  17. Soooo, it might be a distraction for the men to have women (who meet the standards) around- BUT that is the fault of the women? Why are you mean so weak? Buck up and learn to be a man, not a pig.

    How can you point to Lioness/FET and use them as an example of not being combat ready? It is an intellectually dishonest argument. Is Lioness/FET training the same as 03 training? How about you train a group of women THE SAME as grunts AND THEN compare. They give you that training for a reason, it’s not like you all were born combat ready, God’s gift to the Marine Corps.

    Actually all these insults towards women as grunts sounds like the men are just scared that they will no longer have access to their superiority complexes that inflate their sad pitiful ego’s. If you really are that good, you will still be that good when women are not barred from doing it too.

  18. WTF are people thinking???? on

    There are very few women in the Marine Corps that would actually want to become a grunt. Most of them probably doesn’t know what a grunt does on an everyday basis much less what combat is actually like for them.
    For the ones that do not know Females make up only 6.4% which is less than 13,000 Marines. If you dont know math thats about 6-7 females to every 100 males. Very few female Marines would try to become a grunt even less would make it through the training.
    I don’t believe that it should even be discussed until the standards are the same. Why don’t we do pull ups? Why do we have more time to run? If the PFT or CFT changed most of the females would fail. Before a decision gets made they should find out how many females could even handle doing the basic male Marine standards.

  19. WTF...are people thinking on

    I am a female and I would love to see things change in the Marine Corps. But to make a change like this could be a complete disaster. I am all about the training and getting females into the fight but it should be a slower process. Grunts are a different breed of Marine, accepting a female into their “family” is not gonna just happen overnight. We will just be viewed as a liability or potential career enders.

  20. I am a female Marine and I am on my 4th deployment. I have done three previous tours to Iraq. During those tours, I was attached to an infantry BN and a counter Intelligence team. I went on a ton of patrols, convoys and raids with the grunts and the Recon guys. I was in Ramadi and Fallujah during 2005,06 and 07. I’ve taken the CFT quite a few times and I get a 300 with the women scores, I’ve also taken the CFT with the male scoring and I scored a 287 with the male times and standards. This deployment I am with an Army ODA, Special forces for those of you who do not know. I am working as an intelligence analyst for village stability operations. I am about to head home. I lived in the most spartan of conditions, the most austere conditions in the country according to CJSOTF. The “Crapper” was a metal chair, with the seat cut out, placed over a hole in the ground. We burned excrement every single day. No showers were located at the COP and the COP was no bigger than 20 yards long and 20 yards wide. We traveled up to the PRT about once every two weeks just to get a quick shower and head back. I’ve been the gunner riding around in Humvees (ODA guys still drive around in them), I’ve been the gunner with the crow system, I’ve been on over 100 foot patrols through the desert and the mountains. Everywhere I have been, I have been the only female and I have managed to NOT get pregnant, let alone sleep with anyone because I am a professional. I fit in quite well with the SF guys and I don’t get offended and they don’t watch what they say around me. Thats a myth, another typical stereotype.

  21. Let them in, I guarantee I will brake any female the first day. I’ve worked with the FET we took contact, and they coward as close to the ground as they could. It’s a bad idea, grunt lifestyle will have to change, more Marines will get introuble because Female marines make sexual harrassment claims for anything. Let them in, if most men can’t handle being a grunt, I know for a fact females won’t even come close. There is a difference in being” attached” than actually being a” grunt” which most” POG’s” don’t understand as well.

  22. First off, whoever “thinks” that having females in the infantry is a good idea is obviously not “thinking” very well. I know grown men who are 03’s and can’t even hack it. I know that the majority of POG’s out there believe all we do is just shoot at things. In all reality we patrol for hours in 120 degree weather wearing at least 50-60 pounds of gear, then take contact and have to shoot.

    Having females in the infantry would overcomplicate something that doesn’t need anymore overcomplicating. Also, everyone who’s for this has never actually had to do what a grunt does, so how do they know who can do what?
    Terrible idea.

  23. To be honest its like half and half for a female to do combat i mean there are a lot to look at. Such as familes and there moods and sometimes it is hard for a female to leave behind things and also the kids would miss there moms

  24. Women in infantry also means less spots for good male NCO reenlistments. A C.O. is gonna hate to bust down his loyal fireteam and squadleaders for being the men that we are. We have so little infantry battalions as it is. Also there should be an indoc to be a grunt anyways. up the physical requirements. And wm’s stop saying you get a first class wm pft score. That has little to do with it. Give us grunts our respect and our room. The Marine Corps is built on tradition so let us keep it. If you wanna join combat units you should grt a high and tight too. Shit or let us men grow our hair out like the metalheads we are. You see, too much crap to worry about. If you get attached so that you can search females in country then good for you, you got your little fix. Now leave the 03’s alone. Semper.

  25. “EVERY MARINE A RIFLEMAN,” what a bunch of bs. That saying is sooooo disrespectful to grunts. ESPECIALLY 0311’s who ACTUALLY ARE RIFLEMAN. They don’t say every marine a cook, or every marine a helo pilot. So stop with the rifleman crap.

  26. Female marines will not be able to keep up with all the things males do especially in the infantry field….enough of this change nonsense and leave things they way they are being a grunt is more than just tagging along one or two patrols and thinking you rate some sort of respect how about all the countless hours of training, p.t. That we do differently from everybody else in the marine corps. I’m sick and tire of hearing from those people that went on one patrol and think they rate would you know how to even call in a 9 line casevac if things went horribly wrong on that one patrol you went on?

  27. This is a horrible idea. First off, women already get special treatment in the service lets not kid ourselfs here.. How many times ive seen WMs walking around with gunnys etc. In country and out, because men put them on a pedestal. (i didnt, but in general) Faster promotions etc. Any WM that claims this ban on women in direct combat roles hindered their career is lying. The damn infantry is harder to pick up in then almost any other MOS, to all of you hard charging WMs out there talking about all the hard stuff you did while “attached” to grunt and sf units.. I would challenge you to actually research the kind of training those marines went though and live, unlike yourself. Just because your attached doesnt mean you are the same as them. And wether they told you or not i gurantee in 99% of cases you were an added burden. I believe women in the marines already have an advantage over men and i believe that instead of lowering standards to make everything equal we need to do the opposite.. You wanna be a marine wether male or female? Meet these requirments.. The mens requirment.. If you cant? Well sorry. The marine corps wouldnt even miss its 13,000 WMs. All this equality feminist crap is garbage and ultimately makes our corps weaker.. The infantry weeds out non hackers, and if a lot of men dont make it then why the hell do women think they can? If this gets passed the only way there will be any amount of WM grunts is if they lower standards and make mens and womens equal. In turn makes america weaker for less then 1,000 wm grunts total (maybe) and if your all for that then i mis well move to china.

  28. Hey 0331….You need to go back to 5th grade and learn how to spell and how to properly write a sentence. You are the spitting image of a “stupid grunt”

  29. I’m with an MSOT and we have a Female Marine attached to us. She is a bad ass and we fully trust her in combat. As a matter of fact, the first firefight we got into she was gunning on the back of a Humvee and let the 240 rip off a couple hundred rounds. She has been able to hack it with us.

  30. Id also just like to point out a specific example for the hardcharging WMs here..

    I carried a SAW a M16 a M9 and a tac shotgun. Frags and stuns and proper amount of ammo for each including all ppe and water etc. Everyday on foot for between 4-8 hour patrols. Sometimes multiple.. I weighed 225lbs and with all that roughly 335lbs. #1 i dont know any female thats going to firemens carry that weight or effectively drag me any ready distance while wearing gear. #2 go put on a 110 pack and go walk around for 8 hours… Not gonna happen. And dont even get me started on mojave viper or bridgeport…… What im saying is this whole issue with female grunts is pointless and useless and something america should not be worried about esspecially in these times if ever.

  31. 0331- On your phone or not, you cannot spell and like I said are the spitting image of a “stupid grunt”. When was the last time you deployed? I haven’t seen M16’s except on fobbits for the past few years. You also carried an M9? What was your rank? I weight 180 lbs and with all my gear, I probably weigh 240-250. The Female Marine was probably 150 lbs and weighed about 200-210 with all her gear on AND she kept up with us. 110 lb pack huh? Where did you claim to have done this???? Way to overexaggerate!
    I am not talking about Mojave Viper or Bridgeport, what I am simply saying is that we had a Female Marine attached to us who carried her own and fit right in with us. You are preaching to the choir about all your experience and lugging gear around, Been there done that Son.

  32. I’m sorry, but before I would even debate this subject, the powers that be should make the physical standards exactly the same for men and women. If women are so capable and equal, why are their physical standards lesser then men? You want to be in all MOS’s? Meet the same physical standard. Quite personally I’m really tired of the “women’s empowerment movement”, because a few bad apples are making the rest of us look whiny and incapable. I’m all for equality, but not for handicapped standards just because some women want to play the same game as the big boys with lesser standards because they will pull the “sexist” card if they can’t compete.

    Are there a hand full of women that could hack it in the infantry? Maybe. Most importantly we need TRUE equality, not “well there are enough (insert gender and race here)… let’s lower the standards and qualifications so we appear like a model modern military”.

  33. @kenny10

    I did 3 tours in a row between 2005 and 2009 and now im getting medically retired. And i didnt exaggerate any of those numbers.. In fact i owned a scale out on my FOB and those numbers are completely accurate. Grunts have no need to exaggerate, i find that POGs are the ones most often doing that. Im not here to have a dick measuring contest with you (my first sentence here says all it needs to) dont lower my standards so a couple hundred WMs can get their rocks off playing infantrymen. We already got weaker with the hazing crackdown. (if you were even in the marine corps before that..and remember what it used to be like)

  34. Forever LCPL on

    The fact of the matter is the majority of the grunts don’t want anything to do with FMs. The grunts is a place were men can be men, and not have to worry about getting in trouble for sexual harassment for saying the wrong this at the wrong time.

    I agree with Arealgrunt, let them into the grunts, they’ll get broken off within weeks.

  35. I want standards across the board then. Show me that first then I’ll say they are ready. I agree that we have weak men in some infantry units but why add on to it by putting women in the equation. No grunt has ever seen women operate accordingly. What happens when the 24 hour OP turns into a 30 day OP? Now we need to extract them to deal with women issues. This fight is getting out of hand. Why don’t women fight to play professional sports with men if they are so amazingly manly all of a sudden? Professional sports is nothing like serving in combat but they think they can do that? What’s the difference in playing with the big boys and fighting with the big boys? If you can’t do one you can’t do the other. The first female Plt Sgt will be on a power trip and when a Sgt puts her in her place all hell is going to break loose.

  36. id love to see a female marine go through infantry squad leaders course. if they could do that then i wouldn’t mind at all

  37. I’m not a grunt but after having to train with females during MCT and my MOS school its safe to say that this should not happen. When going MOUNT town during MCT, one the instructors who were firing at one of the female Marines with sim rounds, when the Marine felt saw this instead of returning fire she dropped yes dropped her weapon and put her hands up. Another example of my experience with Female Marines at MCT is when doing movement under fire (I’m up they see me I’m down) I was doing my buddy rushes and I notice dirt just fly into my face. What I later found out is that she forgot to put her weapon on safe and shot at me 3 rounds to be exact ( different Marine btw). Next and finally a simple 9 mile hike from camp Devil Dog to Camp Geiger. The rule was simple if you fell back and were put into the 7 ton you were dropped and put back into training. And even better all the females were in front and there around 420 Marines in my company. Within the first 2 miles there were about 3 in the truck. Later after about 5 miles there were about only 15 of the original 60 something Marines who were up front that were still. So ya that’s my experience just be prepared for a lot more Marines to be coming home in boxes because of this, shit I wasn’t even in combat and they almost killed me

  38. NO WM, PERIOD on

    I dont believe there should be females in the service. I use to think it was okay, but over my years, I just see them as drama starters. They try and ” get into everything walking”. Of course I’m not talking about ALL WM, only the lesbian ones are okay to stay. They don’t start drama.

  39. I’d make every wm attached to my squad get a high and tight. If you wanna be fair. No long hair, exceptions are bs.

  40. I’m sure everyone knows what kind of women will be attempting to join. It’s going to be the big butch girls who look Luke men anyway. But I wanna put my two cents in. Stack a 180 lbs man against a 180 lbs female. Without spending a day in the gym, who is naturally stronger? Or faster? Psychologically speaking, women are far more emotional than men. Emotions cannot be a factor in a combat situation when you are trying to kill someone and vice versa.

    And I think this should be the nail in the coffin… literally… what will the Mothers of America say when we have females dying on a more regular basis? QuikClot-ing a female after her leg gets blown off? Ridiculous. What about POWs? Nightmare. America would flip. Sure, maybe there are those than can keep up on a hump or on

  41. I’m sure everyone knows what kind of women will be attempting to join. It’s going to be the big butch girls who look Luke men anyway. But I wanna put my two cents in. Stack a 180 lbs man against a 180 lbs female. Without spending a day in the gym, who is naturally stronger? Or faster? Psychologically speaking, women are far more emotional than men. Emotions cannot be a factor in a combat situation when you are trying to kill someone and vice versa.

    And I think this should be the nail in the coffin… literally… what will the Mothers of America say when we have females dying on a more regular basis? QuikClot-ing a female after her leg gets blown off? Ridiculous. What about POWs? Nightmare. America would flip. Sure, maybe there are those than can keep up on a hump or in training, but I think the mindset is far more important, and it seems these girls just want to do this to prove a point. Your mind is in danger, not mention your body.

  42. I can not believe anyone would think this is a good idea keep ruining the marine corps or better yet get out and let the men take care of the war and you play politician.

  43. I can not believe anyone would think this is a good idea keep ruining the marine corps or better yet get out and let the men take care of the war and you play politician.

  44. WM’s as grunts would destroy the Marine Corp’s and cause more problems then we need. They already have destroyed many great Marines careers. They would, instead of being a helping hand, become a big problem. I guarantee you that if this ever happens there would be more then 100 NJP’s in the first week. Now, I’m not saying women are not physically capable of being a grunt, but they are not mentally stable all the time. They can be for at least 3 weeks out of the month, but that one week a month they would crash and burn. As they burn they are going to take as many Male Marines Down with them. I work with females and nothing against some of them, but there are only a handle full that can handle there own. the rest cause nothing but problems and can’t hack it. We can’t even correct most of them without them going to the higher ups complaining we are being too strict, unfair, or sexist. If they want to be equal then they should they should equal the standards out and see what happens. Most would pitch a fit and when they fail some will go to some spineless SNCO and complain. Then that SNCO would feel bad for them and try to fight for there complaints and hence waist the tax payers money. Just because they could not perform like the rest. WM should be in admin positions and nothing more. The Marine Corps would be a better and stronger fighting force, because then we could actually train like Marines should be training.

  45. it’s is not about who can hack it with the grunts or not or who can carry a full load, or if there ready for combat…i have a lot of friends that loss there arms and legs is that what u really want for mommy? i know there a few out there unfortunately. but do u want future female generations full of mutilated woman because there were grunts…i run into the wrong VA office the other day and i saw a bunch of homeless male veterans, i can’t imagine going back in 20 years and is going to be full of woman. i going to school now and i’m having a hard time focusing and i see all this beautiful girls writing notes and paying attention to the professor. i don’t wanna see a girl with a 1000 yd stare. it’s not about standards. tell me if grunt will let his wife or daughter join a infantry unit, or any average guy would let his wife or daughter join. if u can answer yes, u are out of your mind. u are telling me that a 18 years old girl will be safe even if she completes the requirements(which they ain’t that friking hard to get if u ask me) with a bunch of salty marines with 2 or 3 deployments under there belt, hell no…USMC 11 comment #22 u managed to NOT get pregnant, my question is do she managed to NOT have any sex with marines while she was there?… i quote, “At least a rape ends. It’s the day-to-day degradation that eats at you. None of my friends who were raped on active duty reported it. Or if we tried, we were told to shut up for ‘morale.’ Working with your rapist on a daily basis isn’t a lot of fun, believe me.” open your fricking eye balls. about 30% of woman are rape for sure and 90% according to a fricking survey is not reported, do that rings anybodies bell, u think NJP’s are going to stop horny marine from getting some. if they are not safe in the rear with the gear they are not going to be safe with grunts… is that what u really want for mommy or wify or daughters… to all my female marines out there if u can hack it with the grunts, good on u, i just hope u don’t get rape

  46. uncommon sense on

    Nothing good will happen if they let females into the infantry. It’s doubtless that there will be countless NJP’s for sexual harrassment, sexual assualt, the men are being sexist, etc. When I got back from my second deployment someone had the bright idea of putting a group of WM’s in Camp Horno (those of you who are stationed at Pendleton must surely know of Horno’s reputation). Needless to say there were a substantial amount of harrassment and assault charges filed, and they were only there for around two weeks.

    So my question is this; if females are allowed in the infantry, where the hell are they going to be billeted? You can’t put them in the same barracks as the males for reasons previously stated. I can only see two options, build new barracks or kick the males out of one and put the females there. Building new ones would just be a waste of money and if you kick the men out of their’s where are you going to put them? It’d be a logistical nightmare. My last point is this, we infantry are a different breed. All of the 03’s i know would laugh in a WM’s face if they try to give them an order, myself included. Don’t put them with us, it just won’t work.

  47. I think about it like this. If females want to be grunts let us. put us threw the same training as you and weed the ones you know for a fact who cant do it out. Y’all say that men are stronger then women in most cases yes thats true. you say we wouldnt be able to carry a 150lb pack..most cases this is true. but think about it like this..there ARE those of US who CAN do it. you tell me to carry a 15lb back so be it i wont bitch moan groan or anything of the sorts. im not going to ask you to carry my pack or hold my god damn hand. I’m a Marine first and for most and I know for a fact i didnt join no girl scout troop…plus you’d be suprised what some of us can do when we put our minds to it. I agree with the Sgt. who was listed in this article put a 100 of us in a room together guarnteed you’d find 5 who’d be perfect for infantry.

  48. AND PLUS ALL THAT SEXUAL ASSUALT ITS EVERYWHERE! WETHER YOUR A GRUNT OR A COOK ITS EVERYWHERE. SO DONT EVEN SAY ITLL BE DUE TO BECOMING A GRUNT

  49. The fact that we all agree to the different PT standards between the sexes acknowledges that we all understand that there is a difference between men and women on a physical scale.

    When a male Marine has a child on the way he continues to train like any other day of the week. When a female Marine becomes pregnant she begins to become excluded from all of the physically stressful training and PT Marines go through. What are we suposed to do with a grunt unit where every Marine counts when a female gets pregnant? What about if she gets pregnant in combat?

    Do you know what I think the problem is? POGs have no real idea what it is to be a grunt. Especially female Marines. Give me a break!

  50. I said I managed NOT TO GET PREGNANT and it was because I wasn’t sleeping with anyone. I had a job to do and thats all I was focused on, I’m more professional than every single male I’ve ever met.

  51. @USMC11

    Your professional attitude you say is “more professional then any male you’ve ever met” good for you. however, i doubt this but lets say in your experiences that is correct for a moment.. Your professionalism doesnt translate into you keeping up with my old company where 90% of the marines ran the pft in less then 22 minutes and probably 30% ran it in less than 20. I hope they let WMs in like you that have your head in the sky about how badass you are. We already have men like that and ive seen them get broken off and so would you. If you were a plt sgt what you gonna do? Out PT the men ive mentioned under you? Hahaha what a joke.

  52. Give me an effing break!!!! From the few posts I read, you men are sexist pigs! “Their period will give us away”??? Are you serious right now? Did we just go back 50 Yrs!?! Men may have some vantage points in strength, but that’s it! Women have proven themselves to be as capable as men! I’m sickened that anyone would think that a woman couldn’t perform as well or even better. Correct me If I’m wrong but don’t Marine women go through the same training as men? And if a 5’0 MAN can do it, a 5’11 WOMAN can kick as much ass! Shouldn’t we allow capable people into combat, not a specific sex?!?! I admit to being new to the military, however I’m over 40 and have seen many changes in life! If a woman EANTS to go into combat, how is it less than if a MAN does? Not to mention the repeal of the DADT…EXCUSE ME BUT ID RATHER HAVR SOME BADASS WOMAN WATCHING MY DONS BACK THAN AN EMOTIONAL GAY MAN!!!!!!! (and I have nothing against homosexuals)!!!!!!!!!!!

  53. Mostly Ignorant arguments. I’m actually disappointed in most of the men/03’s that posted. This is not an issue of wether or not a woman is able to do the job or not. (I am an 0369) trust me some of you men cant make the grade either! The real issue here is, like a few mentioned…MORAL FIBER! This is something that has been lost over the years in this country.
    To make this simple, I’ll say (from experience) There are certain situations that INFANTRYMEN (not infantrypeople) find themselves in that would pose very serious issues. I need to watch my buddy’s back even if he’s dropping a deuce. Think about the issues caused by the co-ed living alone.
    Try to present the real issues here people. Be professional. Be respectful. Semper Fi.

  54. Reading some of these comments here makes me think that male Marines must be some kind of delicate flowers who think only with their dicks, not tough warriors they purported to be. Really — a woman in a combat unit would drive them wild with lust? Are they that unprofessional? They must be, considering the amount of sexual assault and harassment servicewomen face.

    SGT Michelle Stephens sounds like she could kick anybody’s ass, and is probably tougher than the guy who works in a cushy post in Hawaii. She’s someone I’d want watching my six.

    @shellee — you’re no better than the other bigots posting here with your comment about an “emotional gay man.” If a man is tough enough to make the Marines, it doesn’t matter if he’s gay or straight.

    Apparently, it’s only “straight” Marines who fear either the gay man intruding on their turf or the woman in combat. Maybe they’re afraid they’ll get shown up.

  55. john doe 0311 on

    The whole argument about if the female body could handle it isn’t a very good one, because like most humans with training it could be possible. But i do feel like the drop out rate/ females actually wanting in would not exactly be worth the changes necessary for the training environment and living conditions. Most i’m sure would adapt to the changes if they would come but i’m also sure that many would allow it to get in the way of their duties and possibly cause the life of someone to be lost because someone focused to much on the only female in the unit. But it is all hypothetical now, the answers will all come with time.

  56. Everyone pushing for females in the infantry have never been in the infantry. Its this political correctness and equality crap the politicians are pushing and the women want. Find me a sizeable group of grunts wanting this.. Their isnt one. And i bet most of the people pushing this including a lot of female service members wouldnt even they themselves try to go infantry.

  57. Im currently serving in Afganistan and taking FET teams on patrol daily. This is my first deployment with a Female unit attached to mine out of my five deployments. My first week in country I encountered a team that had already been here for almost seven months and all they did was complain about the weight of the flank or the length of the patrol or how hot it was or even how the local national kids would talk to them. A month later they ripped out and within a week the new team tried to inform me on a patrol, after they handed out candy to the locals, that if they got swarmed like that again by the kids that my Marines need to step in and stop the kids, REALLY? Everyone knows what its like to hand stuff to the local kids and thats not the only thing that gets under my skins. Dont get me wrong grunts complain as well but about the way locals touch you, I’m sorry they are very touchy people. I see in my Marines every day the way they act with females around. Im sorry but if you put females around grunts they arent going to focus on the mission. They are going flirt and think about the female Marines, even when on patrol. Its just natural for males to look out for females. I know its already been mentioned but still i dont understand how you expect a female to help carry or let alone carry a full man by himself. There are jobs out there for female Marines and the combat arms is not one of them.

  58. “SGT Michelle Stephens sounds like she could kick anybody’s ass, and is probably tougher than the guy who works in a cushy post in Hawaii. She’s someone I’d want watching my six.”——-

    I am pretty sure it said nothing about her deploying. I would rather have someone who spent 7 months on a FOB watch my back over someone with no experience. You never know how someone reacts in combat until they get shot at. Which is something that you probably don’t know anything about.

    My overall interpetation of this is that the females that are for it, want to do it just for the challenge and to say that they did it. What happens if you do make it and get shipped to a grunt unit?(If this gets approved) You can’t just back out. Ya’ll better make sure it’s the career you want and not just to be able to flip men the bird and say I told you so….Also, if you want to pull your weight in the Corps, then stop using the fact that you are a female to get your way. We all know that it happens. And if it it’s not you then good on you, but the majority of the females I have worked around abuse it. In my opinion females already have all the power in the Marine Corps. (Wake up call for those males who have authority over female Marines…STOP, it is sometimes your fault as well!!)

    To the beloved grunts— You guys try to hard to be BAMF’s, most of us know what you do and we get it. And some of the time you guys cross the line from badass to just plain stupid. But hey, it’s your Corps, I just live in it.

    Enjoy your day!

  59. If female marines can hack in training, great. Quick fact, its not that hard, challenging yes. And at the end everyone walks away talking crap, laughing at mistakes and yelling at the boots and retards for messing up. But in training how often do you see a guy curl up in a ball cause “Crazy Ivan” popped up. Training is training, combat is just throws a wrench in your plans. Your tired, pissed, and dying of thirst, but you can’t stop. and all vets know that in combat people will change and you have to react to that. What I’m trying to get at is training will get you there physically, but it can’t mentally train you for combat. And for seperate billeting on a fob or cop, what about post at 0200? Can you always have it where its male/male and female/female? I know what happens on post, cause I’ve stood it late nights.

  60. I have been an 03 for about seven years now. The thought of females joining the infantry community is pretty repulsive, but not impossible. If they (high command) want to make this happen then they better consider cowed billeting, showering, and all that comes with being equal or fully joined. I, like many of my 03 brothers have spent months at a time with out showers my personal total was seven mouth with out a single shower. If a female can live with just baby wipe downs then maybe then can even consider our life style. What about their personal needs? Are we going to call in chow, water, and “period” supply now? If the Marine Crops thinks that in combat i as a squad leader will make special precautions the Marine Corps will have something coming. Lastly stop comparing FET to females in combat! They are not leading any combat patrols nor are they stationed in any “heavy HOT” AO. Please tell me of a FET that fight everyday they live the wire. If they are then it seems they are not doing their jobs by engaging with the female population.

  61. MARINES, YOUR COMMENTS INSPIRED ME TO WRITE A PERSUASIVE PAPER FOR GRAD SCHOOL. I GOT AN “A” ON THE PAPER. DEBATE IS GOOD, LET’S KEEP DOING IT. JUST MAKE SURE WE’RE THINKING DEEPLY AND BEING PROFESSIONAL TO EACH OTHER. YUT!

    Women and Infantry
    The US military places restrictions on women serving in the infantry. Often the most cited argument for women not serving in the infantry is that women will reduce unit cohesion if they are placed among all male infantry units. After reading some very vulgar comments from Appendix A (reactions from Marines who commented on an article that talked about the possibility of women serving in the infantry), and from my experience in the USMC-I believe that there is a large possibility that unit cohesion will be initially reduced if women are allowed to serve in the infantry. Before the Vietnam War, US military units were segregated by race based on this same line of argument (unit cohesion). During the Vietnam War units were finally racially desegregated, and there was an initial drop in unit cohesion as different race groups were forced to work together in a stressful environment. As society learned to adapt, and as unit commanders observed a correlation between diversity and increased unit effectiveness (because of more resources available to accomplish vital tasks)-the notion that mixed race units affected unit cohesion in a negative manner was eventually rejected.
    Today policy makers are considering integrating women into all male infantry units. I warn the policy makers that unit cohesion will probably drop (initially); however, I believe that these all male units will eventually learn to tolerate women-just as paramilitary forces in the US (firefights/police officers), and as the fighter pilot community in the US has learned how to accept women without reducing a unit’s effectiveness. The notion that a qualified woman should not be allowed to serve in the infantry, because the existing team will get upset-is a flawed argument. If the US accepted the argument that newcomers should not be allowed to join an organization in order to preserve stability-then the armed forces would still be segregated by race, women would not be allowed to serve as fighter pilots, schools would still be racially segregated, and blacks would not be allowed to play in Major League Baseball. Policy makers cannot base decisions off of surveys and majorities. Policy makers must use models such as the Van Meter-Van Horn Model in order to judge a policy’s effectiveness, efficiency, equity, ethics, and empathy.

    Claim
    Qualified women in the military should be allowed to serve in the infantry because,

    Reasons
    a) it would give qualified women an equal opportunity to be considered for general/flag officer later on in their careers,
    b) it would give commanders more flexibility to pick the most capable people for specific tasks, c) many women already have combat roles but they are excluded from combat jobs which will give them the best opportunity to become an executive in the future.

    Evidence
    a) The idea that a woman entering in the military has a lesser chance of becoming a general/flag officer is based on the evidence that the majority of the military’s executives (General/Admirals) are males. “Today (in the US Army), 80 percent of general officers come from the tactical and operational career fields that are closed to women. Just one female soldier was selected for brigadier general in 2010, out of 100 military officers chosen in all the services. Only 24 of the Army’s 403 general officers — or 6 percent — are female, though women represent roughly 15 percent of the force” (Bacon, 2011). If qualified women are not even allowed to serve in the infantry when they enter the military, then how can they be on equal footing with men when striving to be an executive?
    b) The idea that commanders have less flexibility when attempting to accomplish their mission is based on the evidence that qualified women are prohibited from joining the infantry. During times of war, budget constraints, and personnel shortages, if a commander cannot evaluate all qualified personnel to accomplish a mission, then the commander reduces his ability to manage chaotic situations effectively.
    c) The idea that women already have combat roles is based on the evidence that women “can serve as machine gunners on Humvees but cannot operate Bradleys, the Army’s armored fighting vehicle. They can work with some long-range artillery but not short-range ones. Women can walk Iraq’s dangerous streets as members of the military police but not as members of the infantry” (Meyers, 1009).

    Warrant
    The US is a country that is based on equality. Women are doing equal work (dying, bleeding, fighting in combat) therefore qualified women should be given an equal opportunity to become an executive down the line. Additionally the military needs to pick the best and brightest people to either accomplish chaotic tasks, or to lead thousands of people in the future. The military should not handicap itself by preventing very qualified people from doing a variety of work.

    Acknowledgment and Response
    1) Per Appendix A, I understand that the potential of having women serve in infantry units
    is an extreme change that can make the infantry and the American public feel uncomfortable. My response to this is: “Every women should have an equal opportunity to excel whether you are comfortable with the women’s decision to advance herself or not.”
    2) Per Appendix A, I understand that women will have a strong possibility of encountering
    sexism if they go against the status quo. My response to this is that this attitude is ignorant and wrong-and anybody who acts in an ignorant fashion will be held accountable.
    3) Per Appendix A, I understand that people will think that the infantry will become
    “weaker”. My response to this is that women will graduate the same schools equally before joining the infantry.
    4) Per Appendix A, I understand that some women have performed poorly in the battle field.
    My response to this is that men and women have performed well and poorly in a battle field environment. It is up to the leaders to train all servicemen/women who are deficient in their skills.
    5) Per Appendix A, I understand that the presence of women might tempt men to have
    romantic feeling for women thus causing a distraction. My response to this is act like adults and concentrate on the battlefield. Having the potential for a few undisciplined servicemen to get distracted is not an excuse to exclude good qualified women from a job they desire.

    Conclusion
    There has been a shift at the highest levels of the federal government to allow qualified women to have an equal opportunity to excel in the military. I believe the changes will come, but at a snail’s pace because of the military bureaucracy. I have discussed this topic with a few people, and among my circle of associates, the people who are most against having women serve in the infantry are other women (these women also believe that girls should not participate in basketball, weight lifting, beer drinking, softball, etc.) The bottom line is that when making policy, personal feeling must be put aside-and sound judgment and deep thinking must be the priority in order to accomplish what is good for the common good.

  62. Decent paper.. Your “associates” are mis informed and so are you.. The people who dont want women in the infantry by the largest margin are the infantry.. Not other women..
    Im shocked you got an A at GRAD school for that.. Liberal teacher bias at its best. Good for you.

  63. Id also like to note in response to the grad paper that you avoided the biggest issues and stuck to the idealistic. You noted that women will graduate the same schools as the men.. That would require women to complete the same bootcamp which currently they dont. The training is different due to physical differences between both men and women ex. PFT etc. The only way what you describe would be able to happen is if complete equality and sameness from the onset of intake into the marines happened. And the washout rate among women in the marines as a whole would be drastically increased. I think a comparison should be made between the somewhat integrated training at paris island versus san diego marines and mct/soi..

  64. grad student on

    @0331: Thanks for the great feedback. I’m in the middle of writing a final paper about this subject and I’m definitely going to take your thoughts into consideration.

    Here are some random thoughts from me:

    -You’re right on about holding men and women to the same standards. My paper was wrong to assume that future “women grunts” would be held to the same standards for the O-course, PFT, CFT, etc. I will bring this discrepancy up during my final paper.

    -FYI, the quote that stated: “the people who are most against having women serve in the infantry are other women” were among my circle of associates. Many of my associates are not grunts, but I included this forum to give the perspective of some grunts.

    -I’ll definitely talk about integrated training in my future paper.

    -I can understand why men and women Marines have different standards. If the standards were the same, there would be very few women Marines-and that would cause many problems (i.e. the Marines would have to start recruiting more waivers which can potentially lead to more problems). However, for my final paper I will emphasize that men and women in the infantry ABSOLUTELY need equal standards. Trying to equalize the standards throughout the Marine Corps will take a few more papers- therefore I’m only discuss equality w/n the grunts.

    Question for you: If a Division I athlete or Serena Williams type had the attitude, motivation, guts, desire, and qualifications to be a grunt-do you think she should still be banned because of her gender? I look forward to a candid
    answer from your perspective.

  65. @grad student

    What you just described quite simply shows why women shouldnt be allowed in the infantry..

    You agree that women would wash out in mass numbers if they were required to do the same training currently that the men do.

    And we agree that if females were to be allowed in combat jobs the marine corp would first have to make standards like the PFT. Etc. The same amongst the sexes..

    So the only way to accomplish this and not have a huge loss of female memebers would be to lower the mens standards and raise the females slightly to meet somewhere in the middle of where they currently are.

    This would be unacceptable in my mind. The infantry is held to a higher standard because of its training, conditioning and mission. Adding females would only complicate things in any multitude of ways.. Living quarters overseas.. Guard duty.. Late night post standing.. Restroom and shower issues.. Sexual harrassment claims.. Etc etc.

    In a ideal world it would make sense or if we were a defence force like the IDF.

    And dont even bring up the serena williams elite athlete argument.. Those women exist but they are extremely rare.. So rare that if i was one of those women i would not want an entire nation to change its policy and history to accomodate my own desires. that is crazy.

  66. @grad student

    The only acceptable awnser to this dillema for me is not reducing the standards of our men. make females do everything that the men currently do. So that the infantry can keep its high standards and if some women can hack it great. that realistically is the only way in my mind to make it work and gaining total equality. Without making the forces weaker. We already have enough weak men.

  67. @grad student

    There are other issues id like to note.. What happens when i as a leader on my FOB have to go wake up female marines for post standing.. Im not going to knock or go find a female to check to see if they are dressed At 0200.

    When new female marines preform badly im not making sure they are dressed before i kick in there door and scream at them..

    Oh wait i would have to knock and be nice.. Cause if i saw them naked id get slapped with sexual harrassment.. Issues like these would only be compounded by a deployment. With tight quarters on a FOB. And what about QRF calls? Im not waiting for the female to get dressed or even checking before i kick in her door screaming to get in the trucks cause fellow marines are injured… I think you get the point.

  68. @0331, great points. It’s good to get an 0331’s perspective and that’s why I’m doing this b/f writing my final. I will include some of your points in my final.

    For my final I’m not going to propose that men’s standards get lowered. For Marine Corps wide schools/events (boot camp, MCT, PFT’s, CFT’s, etc.) I’m going to propose leaving the male/female standards the same. Changing these USMC worldwide standards is another subject.

    My paper is going to focus on the infantry only. For the infantry MOS I’m going to utilize one of your proposals: “make females do everything that the men currently do. So that the infantry can keep its high standards”. We agree that this is the only acceptable way to let women into the infantry.

    And yes, I agree with you: “Those women (like Serena Williams) exist but they are extremely rare… When writing my final paper I’ll emphasize that 1) most women will not desire infantry 2) women who can hack it in the infantry are very rare. In no way will I propose lowering the standards of the USMC’s infantry. No way. For the infantry I propose that women meet the men’s standards in all aspects (to include PFT, CFT, hiking, etc.)

    However, what I will emphasize is that women who are “Serena Williams” like should be given the opportunity to reach their goals, and not be excluded based solely upon on their gender.

    And yes I agree with you-dealing w/women on a FOB can be uncomfortable b/c some women will make life difficult for men. The point of my paper is that there are some women (very rare) who can hack it. Yes, you might have to change some of your normal routines when you’re on a FOB, but I’m sure the commander’s intent/mission can still be met.

    Conclusion: Let the women try out, and see if the “Serena Williams” women in life make it. Yes, you’ll have to adjust, but banning the the “Serena Williams” women solely based on gender automatically prevents them from ever being CENTCOM Cmdr, I MEF CMDR, CMDR of Afghanistan, etc. Public institutions just can’t do this.

  69. @grad student

    The standards would have to be mc wide.. Bc a woman shouldnt be allowed to go to a weaker bootcamp have weaker pft expectations and then waltz into SOI with the men and do the training.. It should be the same for her from the onset as the men. Atleast as far as those women who sign the contract to be infantry. Women who are already marines and want to become infantry would have to pass the mens pft and then go to SOI with the men..

  70. grad student on

    @0331

    Would you consider “Serena Williams” for the infantry if she accomplishes the following:
    a) successfully complete TBS/Boot Camp with women standards.
    b) be allowed to be considered for infantry if she completes an additional PFT/CFT/O-Course, etc. using men’s standards.
    c) complete SOI or IOC with the same high standards you had.

    Thoughts: I understand your argument about the same standards across the board, but for now I’m only focusing on “Serena Williams” trying to join the infantry so that she can have an equal opportunity to become the SgtMaj of the Marine Corps, the OpsChf at the Division/MEF G-3, or a CG in charge of joint operations in Afghanistan/Iraq. Telling “Serena Williams” that she can’t join the infantry because of her gender almost automatically excludes her from many executive billets.

    Another thought: Having a “Serena Williams” in your squad will make grunts uncomfotable, but I think the grunts can adapt like other infantry units and paramilitary organizations around the world. Wouldn’t you rather have “Serena Williams” on your team over some non-hacker who gets others killed?

    I understand that having “punk” women mingling with a tight unit can bring problems such as sexual harassment complaints, EO complaints, and pregnancies. However, not all women are “punks”, and an advanced country that preaches about equal opportunity cannot exclude “Serena Williams” based only upon her gender, the actions of other females, or what she might do. If “Serena Williams” acts like an idiot, she has to be held accountable just like every other Marine. Excluding her because she might bring problems isn’t what our country is about.

    I’m sure an incompetent white Christian male Marine has almost gotten you killed. Would it be appropriate to exclude all white Christian males b/c of the actions of the “non-hacker”? Let’s use situational dependent leadership instead of “cookie cutter” solutions or assumptions. This will allow the USMC to increase its talent pool and weed out “non-hackers” at the same time.

    Lastly, I agree that very few women will make it to the grunts if the standards are set equally. However, there are Division I athletes out there with great attitudes and who might dream of becoming a MEU/RCT commander and who can make your team better. Can’t we give these “Serena Williams” women a chance?

    Thanks for your continued feedback and concerns, and thank you for pointing out uncler sections of my paper.

  71. @grad student

    I already gave my opinion on the matter.. And all you did was repeat the same political idealistic fairness garbage without any real base of knowledge other then liberal ideology.. Sometimes the right thing isnt the best thing… Is my end statement on the matter for you..Knowing our colleges these days im sure with your paper you will be getting an A++.. Good luck

  72. grad student on

    @0331

    You have been trained to look at something for 10 seconds (or less)-and then go with your gut instinct. I admire your passion in following your gut and voicing your opinions loudly based off of your experience. Your 10 second analysis works for combat, b/c a 50% solution is better than doing nothing. Very few people in the world have this skill.

    On the other hand this 10 second analysis is not always appropriate when making high level recommendations.
    Ironically a lot of my sources came from high ranking combat leaders (enlisted and officers) who have decades of experience (for and against women in combat).

    As you move up in rank, you’re going to face decisions which take more than a 10 second analysis. Sometimes the analysis will take days or years. It depends on how much time you have. As you move up in rank, you’ll eventually have the judgment on whether a certain situation should take 10 seconds of analysis or 3 years. It all depends-and critical thinking skills will come from experience, PME, and civilian education.

    It’s ok to debate and it’s welcome. Hell, General Conway debated long and hard about DADT. However, General Conway also showed critical thinking when testifying to the federal government. General Conway is a rare Marine who can make great decisions under any time constraint (short or long).

    Conclusion: Be decisive and passionate when you have to, but also have a more critical eye when the situation presents itself. Knowing how to react in a myriad of situations will make you very well rounded Marine.

    End statement from me. Good luck and thank you for your service.

  73. Former Marine 0311 on

    @grad student your handle along w/your opinion/responses insinuates you are a lot more knowledgeable than “Grunts.” You are nothing but a POG and not qualified/experienced to give your opinion.

    Serena Williams – what is the point? Let me ask you a question: Would you trust Serena Williams to cover your six in hand-to-hand combat? See Jill Mills worlds strongest woman being beat by a couple of douchebags: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS2VTJs1Jus

    Women do not belong in direct combat units because of the issues already discussed.

  74. For the Future on

    One of the main, uncontested points is the difference between a woman’s and a man’s body; purely sexually speaking. At this time, America would riot and pregnancies would run rampant if women and men were put in the same housing, showered, and were put into co-ed bathrooms. I believe that gradual adaptation could bring us to this point. It’s similar to our drinking age, 21. If we lowered it to 18, drunk driving, accidents, assault and all kinds of harassment charges would grow seemingly exponentially. But, eventually it would become an old hat. Something normal, and then the crime rates would show statistics similar to what they are today. This is the nature of change, an upset, then acceptance. I believe this change would be the same. There would be much upset, and then acceptance. Hypothetically, the 03s would then be used to the females being in their environment. Then, the co-ed changes would follow purely because of the logistics strain. Massive upset, then an acceptance. Then, equality is reached. It’s this kind of thinking that made America’s forefathers choose a democracy over a monarchy when that was all they knew. And sexual separation has been around for much longer than a monarchical society and will be much harder to change. It is also an ideal, one i believe we should risk shooting for. I know many women who would give much to be able to fight and die for their country, in any branch. The pride of being a marine infantryman should extend to women as well. Let “man” stand for the human race, versus genital assignment. It could start with the means the college graduate suggested- to avoid all over washouts as the change begins, leave the double standard for the rest of the corp, but the women who want to go infantry, make them take an all new tests held to the men’s standard. Same with the schooling. no change ever seems like a good idea: they are rough, hard, and challenging. But to all of those who are and would be Marines, show them how you handle those tough situations. Think for the future, if female’s bodies become demystified to men then the logistic and criminal problems go away, if you raise women to men’s standards, the ability problem vanishes. The only untested part is mental capability, on which i will say they we are all human, all have fight or flight reflexes. Some men break under pressure and so do some women. How will women know until they are tested? Why not give them the chance to prove themselves as well? If they want to fight and die a grunt and all that entails, see if they can. Exceptions made are often because people are scared of being politically incorrect, or women feel prejudiced against. They are. Men are as well, their societal roles are to objectify women. That makes you more of a man. This change would be the start of a social shift in the mentality and expectations of men. When women are made the same, the inequality will stop. For both sides. Women will not feel repressed and will have no reason to gripe. all claims of harassment will be legitimate. And for men as well, if a female objectifies or insults a male purely because of gender, that is wrong as well and will be seen and treated as such versus the current mentality that women are only sexual objects and that men don’t have feelings to hurt. There is so much resistance to this change because it challenges everything we hold near and dear, the very fiber of our culture. Every role, every stereotype would be challenged, and this would be one of the ripples that starts the tidal wave. That futuristic place that you or i may not see in our lifetimes, but a life where men and women are sexually equal. Isn’t that a life all want for their sons and daughters? Men to be able to express feelings, women to be unobjectified. have the courage to start this change, go somewhere NO ONE has gone before. Be the first and make a better life for everyone this change touches!

  75. StarshipTrooper? on

    Hey, your thing kinda reminds me of Starship Troopers, how everyone was chill with each other! =D Itd be cool if it was like that, if Marine meant every marine, not just the men. No one would need to specify Woman Marine. Then maybe the homosexuals would get a break too, it wouldnt matter what you were interested in, everyone gets lumped together, not that thats my battle or anything, but the whole male-same-as-female would be cool. All people =) and then we could all like whatever we wanted to, things wouldnt be girly or manly, just things =p its kinda blowin my mind and seems freakin impossible. Good luck Marines!

  76. StarshipTrooper? on

    @Former Marine 0311

    If youre gonna show an arm wrestling vid, check this out. Im sure he’s some “douche bag” too. In hand-to-hand you’re not gonna stop the fight and say “hey, lets arm wrestle this out.” No, youre going to use all you know, momentum, your oponents mass and direction coupled with every dirty and lethal trick you know. Man or women. There’s some pretty small guys in the corp, and even the big ones go down with the right training.

  77. If Congress lifts this ban, regardless of the feelings of the infantry/operational forces; will you adhere to USMC standards and professional training and do what your commanding officers tell you to do? Think DADT- you all have to go through training on this subject- did the training and orders change your mindset regarding DADT? Will training and orders change your mindset if women are allowed to compete for combat MOSs?

    Also, when you think of yourself as a Marine- what words do you use to describe “Marine”? What words/images do you use or think of to describe “Infantry Marine”? Do any of these images or self-identifiers adhere to the imagery you encountered when joining the USMC? Do any images or impressions/symbols associated with the term “warrior” make you think of any examples of women (even historically)?

    I appreciate your feedback. Please keep in mind that there are politicians in DC looking at this topic and not necessarily considering your POVs. No real research has been done to capture them, so be honest please.

  78. FYSA- This is not an official research request, but I am asking this question on this blog in order to guide some current discussions. Therefore there will be no attribution and no documentation of your replies.

  79. Any one seen GI jane? I know it’s only a movie but still. I pride myself in being a female Marine. And I get where pretty much everyone comes from. That men are stronger physically and mentally. Not ALL of them are. I’ve seen men curl up into a ball because he was being shot at. Here’s the thing though females (not all mind you) can do an 03 job and be good at it. And can keep up. I agree we would need EQUAL training. And the females who do get knocked up fuck em because I think about it like this the Marine Corps didnt issue me a husband, or kids! Why the hell would I need em?! And I know accidents happen and shit happens, but if you were focused on going to combat and being a grunt then you shouldn’t be messing around anyways. And for the males being distracted ya they might..they are so used to only seeing males but they gotta get over it. We are ALL here to do a job regardless of our MOS. If I want to be a grunt and I’m allowed to I’m going to focus on that. I’ll go threw training and I wont bitch or complain. And those females who did bitch and complain about how hot and heavy it is out there…suck it up… its embarissing to hear my “sisters” cant tough it out. We joined a mans world and we gotta adapt no matter how much it hurts. And to a couple posts back that you would KNOW what type of females would join? Please…you’d be surprised. Not all of us are big, butch and lesbian and look like a dude… give me a chance and I promise you that I’ll be just as good as the guys if not better. And sence our period? haha that’s the funniest thing I’ve heard in awhile..But that aint going to happen either. Just weed the turds out and get the ones who can. I’ll watch my brothers back while he’s taking a dump aint going to scare me with a little shit. And as seperate living quarters F that! ONE TEAM ONE FIGHT ALL THE TIME 24/7!!

  80. Oh ya one more thing with the PFT and CFT bodies are built differently so what? As long as we get the MISSION accomplished whats the harm? Semper Fi Marines and keep it professional never know who will be reading this. =)

  81. former ArmyMarine on

    @Katrina, EXCELLENT POST! I was against women in Combat Arms, but have evolved. I think some women can do the job – not all. Let them serve and contribute. Most people don’t know, but there are women who have earned the coveted Sapper badge in the Army. This is very tough training to go through, and the dropout rate is high. There was a woman in the Best Sapper competition. Not all women will be grunts or Special Operators, but the few that can compete – give them a chance; don’t lower the standards.

  82. Holy shit I have been out for 10 years. I’ve been looking through these articles and what the hell happened to the Corp’s. It’s like MTV. It was getting like this when I got out but no were near this. I am a POG Motor T. The females who came to our unit couldn’t hack being a mechanic. They would try it for a bit and go straight to the company or battalion office. Some of them were good Marines. I just noticed that alot of them had no interest in the job and the work was pretty demanding. Yeah I met a couple of girls who were very athletic but most of them just fell out of humps and PT. I never met one female who knew how to fix anything. Your gonna change Marine Corps history because there might be one out of a million girls who can hack infantry. Its just like when I used to do judo. There were some gals in that. Some were real good. But they were a minority. Good luck. Ya know what this shit has got to stop. I say lets do this. Make the PT standards the same. Make the grooming standards the same. Make everything the fucking same, shower together, and all that shit. If women can do every thing a man can then we should get rid of all these social standards. I had a couple of female officers who were good Marines also. They were good at running and knew their shit. But I really would of rather not have been around them. Yeah I’m a sexist and all that whatever. Ladies I don’t care what these guys say. They don’t like taking orders from you. I always saw females getting special treatment. Hello guys want to fuck them. I used to get yelled at all the time by my female warrant officer. Because I used to chew out the females the same way I did the males. The females used to skip the chain of command and bitch directly to her They even let this tiny gal go to wrecker school. She used to break the wrecker all the time and couldn’t lift all the recovery gear herself. Alot of women just want to do these jobs because they sound cool. I remember we couldn’t hang up playboy pictures in our tool boxes any more because of them. WTF equality. Oh and all this talk about Marines being professional. Does a dog eat meat. There is so much sexual crap going on in support. The Corps needs to wake up. It should only be combat arms anyway. I met like two WM in four years that I really liked. They were strong women who I could count on but still acted like ladies. Hey how bout we start a thread for more male kindergarten teachers.

  83. OK I just can’t help it. The Marine this article is talking about. I’m sure she’s a great Marine and a hard charger. Nothing against her. But I was a bouncer for 6 years after getting out of the Corps. At some pretty rough places. One of the guys I worked with who is also one of my best friends was in the Army, 10th mountain infantry. At the time I was a pretty lean 200lbs. I did power lifting and judo, jujitsu, and wrestling. My buddy was a beast 280. He boxed and power lifted. I think he benched close to 500 lbs. I dead liftied 530, squatted 540 for 3, and benched 315 for 5. Now in the article they are saying this girl was a bouncer. I’m not saying I’m the baddest dude out there or anything like that. But we used to get in some pretty bad brawls. Did this girl train like we did just to bounce and not get your ass kicked? I’ve met alot of bouncers who ain’t shit. And people like to throw that term around like they are Patrick Swayze in Roadhouse. I can’t believe they are printing these articles. Shit even with the martial arts and the lifting. Its no joke when a 250 lb college football player is trying to beat the shit out of you. Its like this I worked with female bouncers. Who were very professional and would try to break up fights and help you out. But when shit got really violent. They would get out of the way.

  84. I don’t know why I like to read this shit when im trying to go to bed lol. Ok, I just got out, I was a female marine and this is how I feel. I honestly think that if we do this, our standards must be the same as the males, and if that eradicates all of us but a handful, that sucks. I like it as we are now, for the most part, but on that note, im so sick of hearing guys complain about that. Fuck, I took my little POG job seriously and frankly kicked ass. So as long as those jobs exist, stfu and let us do em. Im out now, never been happier, was so sick of having to defend myself over and over. Not that im sorry, fuck I had some amazing times, and for all my grunt/recon buddies I made, thanks for being awesome. I miss you all and you guys party like none other! I have no problem with these guys, I just sometimes wish some would realize why we joined, we don’t wanna steal your thunder or ruin your boys club. Fuck I didn’t want to go to college, I was sick of my boring town…I needed something to do and I got to do it. Now im done, peace.

  85. this is probably a terrible analogy but the usmc is sort of like the Nfl. The select few are chosen, the best of the best, the most physically able. There’s no rule that girls can’t be in the Nfl. So if women can be just as physically strong and athletic as men how come we have never seen a woman in the Nfl? This isn’t arguing against women being allowed in the infantry, this is just kind of to shoot down these “high in the sky” feminist opinions thinking women are capable of doing anything men are. Women ARE weaker than men, I don’t care about the exceptions, stop comparing the top 1% strength women to the bottom 1% men

  86. thus us all pathetic a women can do any thing a man can do and men should be able to control ther dicks and if they can do that everything will be fine. and the whole being able to lift 150pounds or what ever makes no sense because i am 5’7 and weigh 140 p and am only 15 and play football and i can pick up a 200 pound boy so dont tell me women cant do what a man can as long as a women trys hard and earns her position they deserve it so u men who say women are weak and cannot do what a man can are blind as a bat. and whats realy sad is some of u are marines or are in the military u guys now what it takes and u guys earned your title so dont you think wommen should get the same chance to prove themselfs i hope this passes women have been criticized by men for thousands of years and its time for it to stop we have been mens dish rag way to long so if this passes i will support it in every way because i plan to become a marine and i hope that by then men will have there heads out of there asses and if u guys realy dont think alot of wommen will wana join then who cares if they keep it as a choice for wommen cuz then if wommen do wana join they can and if they dont they dont have to easy as that.

  87. Women are not physiologically capable of handling the riggers of combat as an infantryman, this is not bias rather it is science. That and Chesty will raise from the grave if it continues to be suggested and stop this abomination.

  88. They, meaning the general public will always think men are stronger an more overpowering than women. When really it depends on the person, and situation. Sure some women appear and come Across as weak, easily broken, but so are some men. It goes both ways. Women these days are just given less opportunities to display their strength In a physical
    And more challenging way. Men are on a daily basis showing off and being physical. Women have a great ability of determination and will fight to the death, not excluding men. But think about it in the sense of most mothers would bend over backwards and die for their child in a heartbeat, now put them on the front line, they’re there to protect their family. They won’t fail. Ever. I want to go into combat, but of course I can’t cuz I’m a girl. Whatever. This world is all about provin yourselves.

  89. Too the point and simple. I used to be the marine who thought women had a chance to prove themselves but i have watched over the years in disgust at the degree of women in the corps. Women don’t need to be in infantry and the few out there who can actually be a marine in all but name im sorry but your sisters out there screwed it up for you. And @Walker you just said you were 5’7 and 140 pds umm im pretty sure with a females body mass composition thats overweight and its not muscle. I know we have plenty of female marines like that. All the feminist notions on the corps needing to be open minded is fine and dandy on paper when it comes to the real deal the females are sorely lacking. And saying men aren’t stronger then females is probably the stupidest thing i ever heard, its scientifically proven men are due to the way our body is built. And before you go off and talk about somethiing you really know nothing about talking sayin u can lift 150lbs, will yeah anyone can but i’m willin to bet you can’t carry full gear and go out on a hump all day with it and not fall out. The whole time i have been in the marines i have met only 2 out of the hundreds of females around who i believed actually earned the title marine. And those two have similar thoughts as me when it comes to females in the corps. They are disgusted by there counterparts and want them out.

  90. I am a marine and she would be the fist one I would shoot if in combat, just to protect my men. Men and women have a role, none are superior than then other. Just different. They just do not belong there

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