Michael Ornstein plays Chuck Marstein on the show "Sons of Anarchy." (Photo courtesy Michael Ornstein)
Last month, a national controversy erupted after images of Marine scout snipers posing with an “SS” flag in Afghanistan went viral online.
The flag showed the notorious Nazi SS organization’s logo, something that had been used quietly in the scout sniper community for years. The “lightening bolt” SS logo was a nod toward the scout sniper title, with the bolts also depicting the swift way the Marines strike at distance. Its use deeply troubled some people, however, considering the darker World War II-era things it represented.
Actor Michael Ornstein was one of those struck by the story. A cast member on the hit show “Sons of Anarchy,” he said he has a deep appreciation for the U.S. military, and was troubled that judgment was passed on the Marines so quickly. He believes the use of the logo came from a “complicated perspective,” without a full understanding for what it represented, he said in a phone interview.
“It’s pretty difficult out there for these guys and women, and I think people should remember that and stay very positive and supportive,” he said of those in the military.
Ornstein is also known for his artwork, some of which can be seen here. He reached out to me and said he’d like to assist the scout sniper community in coming up with a new logo if they’re interested. He proposed this as a start:
In a follow-up email, he added the following:
“Images are a very potent tool and have been used since the first spark of the human timeline. Images transcend language and cut to the core of our communication. As an artist, I understand the power of images and symbols. When I first saw the story of the Scout Sniper unit using the “SS” symbol on their flag, frankly, I was concerned that WWII Veterans would see this flag and be negatively affected by seeing it, harkening back to what they fought against during WWII.
Through communicating online on this matter with civilians and Active Duty and Veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, I was educated that the “SS” lightning bolts on their flag symbolized “Scout Snipers.” This made me think about where else I’ve seen that symbol and I remembered seeing the band Kiss play live when I was a kid and how they also used two lightning bolts to represent the double S’s in their logo, blasting out towards the audience in bright lights and smoke. I know that perspective is a tricky thing and something used in Rock and Roll vs. something used in the military carries different meanings. That said, not knowing the actual intent of the men in the unit for using the SS insignia, I’m giving the benefit of doubt that it wasn’t an actual Nazi intent.
All I knew for sure was that these men were Marines and that maybe they could use a new flag. So, I took up the initiative to work up my own design for a flag that I hoped might be agreeable to the men of this unit. The first thing I did was to talk to a real good friend of mine who happens to be a sniper and he told me what him and his friends think about in the field is “knowing that G-d is watching over them.” So, I worked from that concept and came up with an eye that would symbolize “The Eye of G-d” protectively watching over the men of the unit, staring directly into the face of the enemy. I kept the lighting bolts to symbolize “Scout Snipers”, but I altered them a bit. I’m offering this image as an American artist, hoping it’s honorable and badass enough to be acceptable to the men of this unit. I’m offering it out of deep respect and as a gesture of Thanks for what the men in this Scout Sniper unit and what the Military Community at large, along with their families at home, are tasked with bravely accomplishing each and every day.”
How about it, Marines?
62 Comments
Why is the “o” in God left out? Like this: G-d
That’s how he wrote it, Trevor. I didn’t want to alter his writing.
Because the world is so damn sensitive these days the word GOD is seen as offinsive to some. So they lighten it up as they would a curse word.
No, it’s the opposite. In some traditions (and in a close read of the Old Testament) the word for God is sacred and it’s blasphemous to be spoken aloud outside a place of worship. People commonly write G-d as the written equivalent of not saying the Holy Name in a non-sacred place. That’s not a mainline Christian view, but it’s fairly common in many religious communities.
In my tradition, it’s not appropriate to write the name or word straight out, out of respect and reverence. So, that’s how we write it. – m
Looks like a great start, and love the lightning bolts, but I’m concerned it isn’t “simple” enough. When I think of popular logos like Nike, Target, Apple, McD’s, the basic image is a very recognizable, clean image. Just like the original SS. Maybe this is too much.
I hear you, thanks for the input. Gonna think about simplifying it.
The logo looks decent but, the traditional method of applying the logo is via branding…this is too complex for that…a tatt would work but the Marine Corps is not known for changing tradition…
Mike, Our STA guys also wore a 7.62 projectile (extracted from a round) on a piece of 550 around their neck…the “tooth” as in “brotherhood of the tooth”…not sure of it’s currency, this was in the late 80s and early 90s in 7th Marines.
This is horrible. How do you go from a simple SS logo to this complicated mess? The snipers didn’t want a complicated military emblem with 14 different embedded symbols. The snipers could use this “artwork” for target practice though.
Classy, Jay. Somebody who supports the military tries to help in a way he knows how and you pee in his Cheerios. Looks to me like you’ve got something there, Michael. Hopefully, you ‘ll get some more ‘constructive’ comments and you can zero in on something the Scout Snipers could and would use.
I think this is a perfect symbol for the Scout Snipers – the cross hairs in the center surrounded by the S’s. Very nice, and quite simple. Bravo, Michael.
You out siders don’t tell Marines how to be Marines.
Keep up the great work Marines.
fuck these scumbags that are more worried about lighting bolts then your life .
Mike Yevtuck Vs Cunt zito because Kurt Sutter don’t just roll over and give away part to any freak that wants to sue him
LOL I mean Chuck Zito . fists and feet elbows knees
only no lawyers allowed.
The logo SS is just fine as it is. But now all these politicians and new generation got butthurt so they have to change it to satisfy them! What a joke! I feel sorry for the Marine Corps and what they are becoming. General Amos doesn’t have a set of balls to stand up to these losers on capital hill is the bottom line. I wish another Al Gray or Carl Mundy was running the show, this wouldn’t even be an issue.
This sorry excuse for a logo looks like a (TOTAL ABORTION)!!!! Good thing Carlos Hathcock isn’t alive to see this crap!!!!
I think its great to see people like Michael supporting our troops. I’m an instructor at sniper school and have operated as one for 4 deployments and I hate that our own leadership doesn’t have the balls to stand up for their own but its great to see this actor trying to help our community out. The SS means a lot to us and he’s taking that into consideration with his design by the looks of it.
SS = hellyeah, fricken badass man. Almost as badass as this mustashe. Like a mustashe with titties. Lol.
Logo is a bit busy but I like the bolts in them.
-sam
No disrespect but I’m a Nam era Marine Scout Sniper and this isnt close. Doesn’t connect with the real world. Too slick and complicated. And PC which is not the sniper community.
On Dec 21, 2012 “The White Feather” is going to return from Valhalla to take vengance on hippie douche bags. I guarantee we will continue to rock the SS. I Know my hogs skull tat with SS in the eyes isnt going anywhere. Cool this guy supports the troops though, much respect for giving a fuck.
As a Marine Scout Sniper, I don’t like it. I like the old one. And still the current one if you ask me and my Brothers.
Thanks for caring, Mike, but we like the one we have. I am not going to help you with your lines, don’t help me with mine.
I think it looks pretty kickass, and can certainly appreciate a supportive and patriotic American’s desire to help, but I personally am opposed to changing the current symbol at all just on general principles. Since when did the Marine Corps become a bunch of PC sheep who pussyfoot around out of their way to avoid hurting somebody’s feelings? Marines have always been much more crass than that, and that is what is expected, at least in my opinion. This is the Marine Corps, not the Chair Force. Since when have Marines EVER given a flying fuck what other people think about them?
This insignia is a bit esoteric with the all seeing eye. I think the fleur di lis (for scouting) is a cool concept, but is a bit overused and misunderstood due to the multiple meanings of the symbol. I think most connect it to royalty. Scout snipers are looking for something that specifically represents the factual history of our trade (I am one BTW). Most unit produced symbols contain cliche skulls, reticules, ect. There are some awesome designs out there (shadow-man for example) but the simpler the better. Thanks for the input though Mike.
http://www.change.org/
Maybe the Hollywood guys Mr. Orsteind and Mr Kurt Sutter can start a petition with all their money and fans this could work. I am Totally invisable to the public just like you guys so if I start this for you it won’t go anywhere.
I support and respect our armed forces and if Kurt starts this I will ask everyone I see to sign it for you guys.
Fight on Marines
Well said Justin, I like it and like that he looked in to the meaning of SS in the Sniper. But I still wont give up my SS
Well, I’d rather take criticism from Marines than from some guy who runs an art gallery, that’s for damn sure.
Right on and with respect, Michael
Looks like some (Goth Tribal Bullshit) General Amos needs to grow some balls and stand up to these idiot politicians and liberals and put them in there place!!!!!
Come on Hollywood get a petition together using your fans to help these Marines .
Come on Michael Ornstein you wanted to help this is your chance to help them.if no one helps today tommarow everyone will forget
and
if the math gets any tougher I won’t be able to comment again. Good luck guys I told you I am invisable Michael Ornstein can even read my words .
Michael, thank you for not bashing the military. As of late, we’ve been getting too much bad press- much of it not deserved.
Gentlemen, unfortunately the Third Reich f@*#%d up a few symbols for all of history (i.e. Swastika, an ancient tribal symbol). While PC is a load of tree-hugger crap, bear in mind the gravity of the “SS” icon. It killed an entire generation of people- including our grandfathers, women and children. We’re better as professionals than those (literal) baby killers. While change blows, why not create a new symbol of the tradecraft, one that doesn’t force people that lived and saw death at the hands of the Nazi regime? I know my comments will be highly unpopular- but think if your family was decimated by the “SS”. The true Scout Sniper has the ability to take the life of one while saving others – unlike the douchebags of Nazi Germany.
Here we go again…..people not knowing what the symbols actually mean. ( I am sure my Norse brethren will have more to add than what I will)
From the website: http://www.vikingrune.com/2009/07/norse-runic-third-reich-symbols/
Some of the symbols treated in this article may be interpreted as pointing to Nazi ideology in certain contexts. Their use in the present article has nothing to do with it. Any such connotations are a recent development as compared to the long history of the most of these signs. Below both their original meaning in the Norse Vikingculture and their use in Nazi Germany is treated, in order to demonstrate that the earlier, original tradition is much older.
It should be observed that the interest towards runology so characteristic for early 20th century German Nazi circles was heated by the works of Guido von List, occult runic revivalist. Von List created his own version of the Futhark known as Armanen runes, allegedly revealed to his “inner eye”. Later Karl Maria Willigut was responsible for their use during the Third Reich. Armanen Futhark derives from historic runes but does not belong to the Norse runelore. Note that a few of these symbols are included into thelist of symbols forbidden in Germany. However, Norse symbols are not hate symbols.
Sig Rune
Sig is the Armanen name of that rune. In the ancient Norse and Germanic runelore that rune always designated sun: its Elder Futhark reconstructed name is *sowilo, ‘sun’, Younger Futhark name is sól, ‘sun’, Anglo-Saxon Futhorc name is sigel, ‘sun’. Guido von List changed the name to mean ‘victory’ (Sieg in German). The sequence of runes Sig and Tyr in his version of the Futhark together constitute Sigtýr, one of Odin’s names. In Nazi Germany Sig or Siegesrune (Rune of victory) was the most recognizable and popular symbol after Hakenkreuz (swastika). SS-runes insignia with two oblique Sig runes were created in 1933 by graphic designer Walter Heck. He got 2.50 Reichsmarks for the rights to this design. Nazi Siegesrune actually has nothing to do with the ancient sun symbolism of the *sowilo rune, the earliest Σ-forms of which substantially differ from later versions.
I cannot stand IGNORANT people making decisions that will seriously affect one’s life or career, without first researching and getting all the facts. I know, I know, the media always puts out ALL OF THE FACTS, right? If we lived off this premise, the toten-rune or the totes-rune (depending on which dialect you prefer) is a HATE symbol. You will see it is strangely familiar to the “peace sign”. That is not by coincidence, it was done on purpose (see: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/435/what-is-the-origin-of-the-peace-symbol or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_sign#The_peace_symbol) You will also notice that many of the old runes look familiar to military symbology, again, not by coincidence. Many of the symbols used in Nazi Germany by the National Socialist Party were symbols that have been in existence and used by other civilizations for thousands of years before Hitler and his henchmen ever came about.
I don’t see or hear anyone complaining that the symbol of the US became an eagle, after originally being the turkey, as a problem. The NSP used that symbol too! But they adopted that from the Roman Empire. The swastika was originally used as a symbol of peace and the sun by about a dozen different civilizations throughout history. But I digress off topic.
“SS” became known in the marine sniper community during the Vietnam War. There are books written about and I will not write an epic on it. Bottom line, it’s not racially motivated. The runes should stay. Is anyone giving a shit about the “bloods” or “crips” or any other gang in the military? I have been stationed at bases, where part of the in-brief are lengthy descriptions and warnings about how rampant they are on base. Go after them, not snipers. I don’t have the statistical data but i am sure snipers count for about 80% of all kills made in the past decade. The are a force multiplier, though they remain the black sheep and outcasts of the armed forces.
As for the new symbol Mr. Ornstein, speaking on behalf of the Marine Scout Sniper community and as a sniper myself, I applaud your effort. I will say thank you, but no thank you. I know symbology well and do not agree with the all seeing eye. Your use of symbols within your offering (whether on purpose or not) is very esoteric and therefore, unappreciated. Snipers are traditional and superstitious people. We live on the premise “If you are not paranoid, you are not prepared.” We are meticulous and highly discriminative in our acts. We need to be, for our survival (and our brother’s survival) is on the line. We prefer the continual use of thousand year old runes.
Again, thank you for your interest in our community.
First, kudos to my friend Michael for havin’ the guts to see a problem and offer a solution. The concept shows a lot of thought and effort. Maybe a little tweakin’ might be needed here and there, but it’s a start!
Those of you who don’t like it, why not try drawin’ up somethin’ of your own and see how hard/easy it is.
Additionally, Mr. Ornstein isn’t rammin’ this down the Marines’ throat, he is offerin’ it out of respect. Somethin’ some folks in their comments seem to have forgotten existed.
Frankly, I never thought about the double lightnin’ symbol used by this sniper unit as anything but what it was, their name. Just as the lightnin’ bolts used in the KISS logo was often criticised as harkenin’ back to the Nazi’s (and considerin’ that founder Gene Simmons is Jewish, I always laughed at that one!). It was what it was at the time, part of the overall.
There’s such a thing as bein’ cognizant of what happened before, and bein’ respectful. There’s too much bowin’ down to the PC altar as it is. Frankly, I feel that the unit has the right to use whatever logo they wish.
By the same token, I will support Mr. Ornstein’s right and ability to offer a solution to a problem, instead of sittin’ around and pitchin’ a bitch about it. It goes to show that those who can, do. Those who can’t, critic those who put their necks out.
OK – I respect the shit out of you Michael for trying your hand at giving the SS a new look logo. If this Country hadn’t turned into a bunch of politically correct, everything offends me, ACLU in your face bunch of namby-pambies, then this wouldn’t have even been an issue. It’s great to see civilians such as Michael take an active interest in trying to help out. Kudos to you also for looking into some of the history of the SS to understand the meaning and the brotherhood of SS. As for all of the people leaving negative comments about it – does it make you feel tough by typing something?? It’s ridiculous. Michael did this of his own accord and did better than any of your suggestions – wait, you didn’t have any did you???? Good job Michael and I hope that more of the active SS picks up on your ideas giving you input – I hope they keep the original SS bolts tho – tradition is key for us in the military!
@momof2marines
Yeah, I pissed in his Cheerios because he put forth a ridiculous design. He is either trolling the military community for fun or he is out of his mind. Have you gone and looked at his “art”? I’m guessing it is the second option.
I actually can appreciate him being proactive (if he is being serious about this) but let the snipers work this out. They don’t want his help.
Check it out, http://michaelornstein.com/revised
The bullet is not exactly true to form and the bolts are still my own, but it’s simplified and stands clear for “one shot, one kill.”
If not for a flag, it might work for a patch, as a token of thanks, from me, which is all I wanted to say in the first place.
– Michael
IF you freaks think the only thing that separates USA Marine Snipers from Nazi Germany are the SS ligthing bolts. Fuck you .
1#Did you ever think it could also be used as a reminder that with Great men like our USA marine snipers Horrible things of the past will never take place again
#2 Did you ever think our USA Marines are telling the eneny they will show no Mercy.
#3 did you ever think what ever it means to them is not our fucking business.
#4 do you rich law changers want to trade places with our Marine snipers?
@Michael Ornstein
Much better. Now we can let the snipers work this out.
good idea / signing off – Michael
Why give suggestions to change when These real men know what they want . I think the best thing we can do for them is gather names and show our support for our troops.
I support USA troops
Its a shame no Sons of Anarchy supporters that read this story want to show support by helping these proud Marines keep and make their own traditions..
SS” icon. It killed no one . Read a fucking histroy book .
it was the Nazi Germans that did the killing.
The Nazi Germans liked lighting bolts Big freaking deal
The Nazi Germans liked sex, ice cream ,etc also ,do you want the Marines to give that up also ?
The USA hells angels have been made famous for being in the newspapers year after year for decade after decade for harming raping beating molesting and murdering women and children . I don’t see any law makers asking those scumbags to change their icon? Some very rich men even pay these freaks to be on their TV show.
Our USA Marine Snipers are shown less respect from the American law makers then the USA hells angels
Sad Sad SAd and not one rich famous star will stand up and fight for these Proud Marines.
These are not mid life crisis bikers these are Proud Marines
These men Know what they want becasue they risk their life every day.
This whole argument hits home because how do you think the women and children Victims of the USA hells angels feel and the family of those Victims feel when they turm on the TV and see kurt sutter making gang members rich and famous?
and when they see mid aged crisis want a be bikers pararde around acting like these freaks are special ?
So lets Get some SOA Fans behind Our Marines
We’re Scout Sniper, our symbol isn’t going anywhere, even if the public thinks it does. Plain and simple.
Hey Ornstein this is a Marine matter so let the Marines deal with it. Unless someday you earn the title then maybe your influence and your opinion will count(STICK TO ACTING) the SS will stay no matter what, if your looking for more fame and publicity or to sell your art do it in Hollywood as a Sniper with STA Platoon with 9 confirmed the SS stays. If Amos had any balls, and would stand up to Capitol Hill this wouldn’t be an issue, keep your nose out of Marine affairs please. P.S. Your violent drug pushing addict show sucks, great example your crap is setting for the youth of America!!!!!!
Proud to have men like you defend me and my loved ones.
Thank you
Oh ya and Michael Marines do not wear patches, go peddle your art to the Army im sure they will enjoy it. You want to thank the Marines start visiting the V.A. hospitals or the wounded warrior battalion and thank us personally, or use some of your hard earned Hollywood dollars and donate to the DAV or Marine Corps League. I know what your up to I’ve seen your type come and go. Take a page outta Gary Sinise’s book that man is a true patriot and hero and truely does give a fuck about the military.
It hurts to hear that Gen. Amos won’t stand up to politicians. Fuck him. Its the NCO’s and SNCO’s that run the Corps anyhow. Don’t change shit! Without our traditions, we are nothing but the Army! Keep your heads down brothers and ignore the bullshit from Washington! Semper Fi!
CPL USMC 92-96
So will celtic aligned folks be required to no longer having Swastikas in any old depiction of their symbols?
Scout Snipers, double SS’s, get it folks??!! Get over it.
The “artistic” SS’s look like skewed bow ties, horrible.
And for crying out loud, get over spelling out GOD. Why has GOD become so dishonored in this country. Get real people.
We appreciate the comments from the Hollywood and so called Hells Angels but speaking for the US Marine Corps, “we don’t need any symbols or special graphics” we all have the Eagle Globe and Anchor. That’s been enough for hundreds of years and nothing has changed. OBTW, since we have you here, if I can speak for the Marine Corps, we’d like “Our Name” Hells’ Angles back, I don’t believe any gave you guys authorization to use it, WE Are “Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 321 (VMFA-321) Hells’ Angles” and have been so since WWII. If you want to do something for us, QUIT USING OUR NAME!
Man, it seems to me that some of you whankers postin’ negative BS on here about Michael’s offer are just a bunch of internet pussy wanna be tough guys hidin’ behind a damn computer monitor throwin’ piss all over somebody for havin’ an idea and sharin’ it.
Honestly, never has the phrase ‘Those who CAN, DO. Those who CAN’T, CRITIC those who DO.’ been more true to life than it’s been on this page!
Y’know, I can’t draw a straight line with a frackin’ ruler, but I know when I like somethin’. It’s not just because of bein’ a friend of Mr. Ornstein’s that I’m speakin’ out, but because I like a lot of his work – whether it’s his paintin’s, his photography, his writin’, or his actin’.
Tell all y’all one thing, when it comes to the so – called classic artists, some of ’em make my hair hurt. Picasso is one of ’em.
Y’all might not like Mr. Orstein’s style now, but years from now, it might be as influential and coveted as a Picasso. Ever think of that?
Again, some of you are missin’ the fucking point! Mr. Ornstein isn’t holdin’ a gun to the USMC’s head nor to the Secret Snipers and tellin’ ’em that they HAVE to use his design! He saw people makin’ a big stink outta somethin’ that was really none of their frackin’ business, and offered a workable alternative.
Sure as hell don’t see any of you complainers offerin’ to do likewise.
So if some of you whinin’ whankers, like Brian and the GodoftheHellsAngels (poor Hell’s Angels!) can’t do anything better than rake Mr. Ornstein over the coals for havin’ the balls to somethin’ all y’all can’t do, maybe y’all should find somethin’ else to get your drawers in a wad over.
To the real true Marines out there, I know all y’all can see that Mr. Ornstein’s heart was in the right place. We support you here at home.
From a USAR Retired Captain’s wife.
WOW retired Captains wife, your funny keep them coming that was a good laugh. Sounds like you have a crush on Ornstein, go for it!!!Im sure your husband has had his fun while he was deployed behind your back. That being said anything coming from a Retired Army mutts wife I will consider a joke!!!By the way I can draw a hell of alot better than that but the fact is nothing needs to be changed with the logo and its not going to change, you should go open your pie hole in the Army times. Army mutt wife “GIVE ME A BREAK” GOD your funny!!!!
Good one Brian!!! Why there is a Army wife talking shit about Marine Corps issues is beyond me. I’m a Marine Veteran and a tatt artist. Iv’e been following this issue since it broke and my buddies who are artists didn’t go out drawing up designs to change the SS logo that’s been with the STA snipers for as long SS snipers have been around. Were not looking for fame or money or to promote are artwork.(This is a Scout Sniper issue) cut and dry. If they want to change it fine if not fine. They don’t need some gayass actor from Hollywood who can draw a bit sticking his nose or ideas in Marine Corps business(Stick to Hollywood baldy!!Let the Snipers handle it!!! And Army wife keep mooching of HUBBIES retirement checks and direct your comments in the Army times(stay out of Marine Corps business(especially the Scout Snipers) like Brian said!!!!
(GOOD NIGHT CHESTY PULLER WHEVER YOU ARE)!!!!!!
First I would like to say : Sorry I saw this when Kurt Sutter put this site on his twitter or I would never would have commented on a USA Marine Scout Sniper site. I really did not realize until after a few comments it is for a restricted community .
I hate when Hollywood men are pushing USA hells angels support on young teenagers young adults and mid life crisis men. Last thing we need in the USA is for Kurt Sutter to make the USA hells angels bigger and richer.
I had to post one last time so the bitch posting for Ornstein would under
My Name is Mike Yevtuck I live at 97 pacific Blvd. Cliffwood beach. NJ 07735 phone 732 673 1269
I don’t hide behind a computer. I beat up USA hells angels every chance they give me.
You should never talk about the other men here who look at death everyday.
Your Pal Michael Ornstein’s
USA hells angels have been made famous in the USA newspapers year after year decades after decade for horrible crimes like harming raping molesting and murdering women and children.
In recent years the USA hells angels have added the proud tradition of standing behind the USA hells angels leader Dave Burgess who was busted transporting a huge Child porn collection across many state line on his way to a USA hells angels convention. Was that the distribution point for USA hells angels child porn ?
Why would the USA hells angels leader take a record amount of child porn across so many states to USA hells angels convention he that was not the distribution point?
Also Like I have been posting online forever
Give back the Hells angels name to the armed forces .
You men that date and support USA hells angels disgust me ,
You freaks offered help to benefit yourself . Now out of respect for the women and children in the USA the families of the men fighting for us stop promoting USA hells angels before more women and children become victims .
Thank you Michael for your support. As the son of a WWII army vet who fought in Europe. My father was laughing in the old soldiers home, over this controversy. He had no problem with the previous logo. As an S/S detachment senior NCO for the 5th (Marines) SOCOM group, there is no need to do any changes. these so called nazi signs were first used by vikings in there travels into Europe and again by the roman legions and again by persians. so this controversy will pass.
Just went to Ornsteins website of his so called art. God what a total abortion, Goddam don’t quit your day job, and by the way from what I hear that sucks too. Damm my three year old son comes home from daycare with better artwork than that, you really come to the Marines with that junk (especially the scout snipers) you either have alot of balls or no brains!!! Layoff the acid/mushrooms or PCP dude!!!
Lame Logo. Sons of Anarchy are fucking actresses. Fuck their opinion. Who are they ? nobody’s… the SS is the Sniper Logo, fuck politics. Keep the logo.
Here we go again…..people not knowing what the symbols actually mean. ( I am sure my Norse brethren will have more to add than what I will)
From the vikingrune website:
“Some of the symbols treated in this article may be interpreted as pointing to Nazi ideology in certain contexts. Their use in the present article has nothing to do with it. Any such connotations are a recent development as compared to the long history of the most of these signs. Below both their original meaning in the Norse Vikingculture and their use in Nazi Germany is treated, in order to demonstrate that the earlier, original tradition is much older.
It should be observed that the interest towards runology so characteristic for early 20th century German Nazi circles was heated by the works of Guido von List, occult runic revivalist. Von List created his own version of the Futhark known as Armanen runes, allegedly revealed to his “inner eye”. Later Karl Maria Willigut was responsible for their use during the Third Reich. Armanen Futhark derives from historic runes but does not belong to the Norse runelore. Note that a few of these symbols are included into thelist of symbols forbidden in Germany. However, Norse symbols are not hate symbols.
Sig Rune
Sig is the Armanen name of that rune. In the ancient Norse and Germanic runelore that rune always designated sun: its Elder Futhark reconstructed name is *sowilo, ‘sun’, Younger Futhark name is sól, ‘sun’, Anglo-Saxon Futhorc name is sigel, ‘sun’. Guido von List changed the name to mean ‘victory’ (Sieg in German). The sequence of runes Sig and Tyr in his version of the Futhark together constitute Sigtýr, one of Odin’s names. In Nazi Germany Sig or Siegesrune (Rune of victory) was the most recognizable and popular symbol after Hakenkreuz (swastika). SS-runes insignia with two oblique Sig runes were created in 1933 by graphic designer Walter Heck. He got 2.50 Reichsmarks for the rights to this design. Nazi Siegesrune actually has nothing to do with the ancient sun symbolism of the *sowilo rune, the earliest Σ-forms of which substantially differ from later versions.”
I cannot stand IGNORANT people making decisions that will seriously affect one’s life or career, without first researching and getting all the facts. I know, I know, the media always puts out ALL OF THE FACTS, right? If we lived off this premise, the toten-rune or the totes-rune (depending on which dialect you prefer) is a HATE symbol. You will see it is strangely familiar to the “peace sign”. That is not by coincidence, it was done on purpose (see: straight dope website or wikipedia “history of peace sign”) You will also notice that many of the old runes look familiar to military symbology, again, not by coincidence. Many of the symbols used in Nazi Germany by the National Socialist Party were symbols that have been in existence and used by other civilizations for thousands of years before Hitler and his henchmen ever came about.
I don’t see or hear anyone complaining that the symbol of the US became an eagle, after originally being the turkey, as a problem. The NSP used that symbol too! But they adopted that from the Roman Empire. The swastika was originally used as a symbol of peace and the sun by about a dozen different civilizations throughout history. But I digress off topic.
“SS” became known in the marine sniper community during the Vietnam War. There are books written about and I will not write an epic on it. Bottom line, it’s not racially motivated. The runes should stay. Is anyone giving a shit about the “bloods” or “crips” or any other gang in the military? I have been stationed at bases, where part of the in-brief are lengthy descriptions and warnings about how rampant they are on base. Go after them, not snipers. I don’t have the statistical data but i am sure snipers count for about 80% of all kills made in the past decade. The are a force multiplier, though they remain the black sheep and outcasts of the armed forces.
As for the new symbol Mr. Ornstein, speaking on behalf of the Marine Scout Sniper community and as a sniper myself, I applaud your effort. I will say thank you, but no thank you. I know symbology well and do not agree with the all seeing eye. Your use of symbols within your offering (whether on purpose or not) is very esoteric and therefore, unappreciated. Snipers are traditional and superstitious people. We live on the premise “If you are not paranoid, you are not prepared.” We are meticulous and highly discriminative in our acts. We need to be, for our survival (and our brother’s survival) is on the line. We prefer the continual use of thousand year old runes.
Again, thank you for your interest in our community.
Honestly this is probably one of the best reactions to this story, instead of trying to blame and punish, your trying to help and offer solutions. We should all be humbled by your offer, I know I am. As an active duty Navy E-5 and an SOA fan, I want to extend my thanks for taking this matter to heart and trying to be part of the solution.
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Sam P,
As a result of the thought I gave to this situation after reading and thinking about your words all day yesterday and today, I have a deeper understanding.
These words, in particular:
“Snipers are traditional and superstitious people. We live on the premise “If you are not paranoid, you are not prepared.” We are meticulous and highly discriminative in our acts. We need to be, for our survival (and our brother’s survival) is on the line. We prefer the continual use of thousand year old runes.”
I understand that deeply. Enough said.
Ultimately, all I want to say to the Marine Scout Sniper Community is Thank You.
Honored,
Michael Marisi Ornstein
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Just so you know, my sketch was meant to go beyond the “All Seeing Eye.”
It was meant to represent the Marine Scout Sniper’s eye, standing as a clear fact that no one can hide because this eye never closes and this eye is everywhere at all times.
A message stating “My Sight, My Victory” sent direct from NYC.
“Never Forget.”
Right on Ornstein you made your point now go back to Hollyweird!!!!!! Thanks for adding to the controversy. I think we the Marines that have earned the “TITLE” will handle this within the Ranks…..no more input from you is necessary.
You could certainly see your skills in the paintings you write. The sector hopes for more passionate writers like you who aren’t afraid to mention how they believe. Always follow your heart. http://www.profesjonalne.logo-projektowanie.com/11114-artykul-Jak.ubezpieczyc.spiesznie.samochod